Avasopht wrote:I can freely save my own patches on my hard drive and space is cheap. You can get a laptop / portable 1tb hdd for $50!
You can always tell when someone hasn't bothered to read any of the previous comments in the thread I was talking strictly about my own experience in relation to the 'most people are tired of the format,' giving you details of my usage so that you can understand what my usage is. I have maybe 200 GB of content on my external drive that I'm not really using at all because I've been able to do most of my work with the 50GB of Refills. I also have plenty of audio samples but I've not bothered to copy them over this time as I just haven't felt the need to do so. And I have actually been following the thread and have read every comment,. Don't recall seeing any solid figures showing that a majority of users are tired of the format? Maybe I missed it somehow or it slipped from my memory as it's just not the sort of thing I would read and later recall in between doing work and other things. I guess I have a hard time understanding how the ReFill format could be considering dying (or dead as this thread claims)?
I'd say with their presence in the shop, they are more in the forefront than ever. I see new developers and new ReFills showing up in the shop all the time. Before Rack Extensions (before the current shop), I had only bought one ReFill—and I had been a user since Reason 1. Since the shop opened, I have bought MANY ReFills.
But folks here are talking about the format as if there is a format to replace it? As if folks don't get the features they want; someone will come in with a different format? I'm sorry if I don't follow. The ReFill format is perfectly viable.
It allows designers to deliver libraries how they wish as they are the ones to design them. If there is a developer with a ReFill in which you would like to have separately as a folder (pre-ReFill packing); you are free to contact them and ask them. Show them your proof of purchase and tell them what it is you would like. If they don't want to share that with you, that is their prerogative and I would say that is the end of the discussion for that particular ReFill. Philosurfer wrote:I don't see refills going away anytime soon, and nor do i personally want them to go away. And they work well.
If you want something different. Go elsewhere.
I heard Fruity Loops has a good community. Refills wont be going away anytime soon but people are voting with their feet and if the Props dont do something soon, theres a chance that they could go bust over something so small. You say if we want something different 'we should go elsewhere'? Well i have been using Reason since version 2.5 but i should just give up and go elsewhere? Eh, no i think i will try and shape the program that i know and love thank you very much. Tell me, how does adding a delete function affect you?
I mean, if you never use it, how does it affect you or your music? Your just trying to block other people for what reason exactly? Do you even know?
Sounds like you need a new DAW. You obviously lack clear understanding as to why the refill format was created in the first place. As some others stated.
You can pack and un-pack your own refills if you are that concerned. Noting, I work with producers that lug terabytes of libraries around with them.
Do they use them all.? But they like having them there if they need to. I just wanted to point out you sound like a whiney broke ass little bitch that just wants to complain about HD space. And you are doing a good job enforcing that point with your sad remarks.
Gak wrote:Maybe, but considering the troll of the OP towards some people and the crazy 'I'll get attention' over the top title, he kinda has it coming. If someone would have started the thread with concerns and annoyances other than 'me me me me me' over the whole thing, would have gone over better. Really because as i remember it, you personally started all the 'troll' talk. We were having a happy discussion about what we liked and disliked about the refill format and you come along and started trolling the thread.
The Refill format is DEAD because looking at my statistics, refill sales have dropped by nearly 100%, while at the same time, Soundpack sales have increased to the point where i will no longer be making refills. Buying a refill here or there every now and again does not equal shit compared to the Soundpack market so don't get it twisted. You think a handful of Refill sales eg Loopmasters, propellerheads etc make even a small dent in the Sample C.D market? AND since the Re market started up, there is even less room for Refill sales, I would actually donate one of my kidneys for a copy of Propellerheads Refill sale report so i could rub it in your face. Honestly Gac, no matter how much you hate me or dislike what im saying, makes no difference to me, do you think i would come on here boasting that the refill market is dead and 'Hey everybody' look at me?
For no reason? No i came on here because i have a genuine problem with the Refill format but you don't use Reasontalk for the same reason as me, you use it to annoy people and apparently tell them about your thick skin and mental issues? Gak wrote:It's all mental though. That's what I don't understand. I no longer care.
Maybe the no food/shit hooked up all over you/IV/etc thing is just too much. One thing about this time is the IV was tough to get in my hand (says I have thick skin.not something I'm used to people saying to me ) so he was pokin' around for a while. This is Reasontalk, we talk about Reason related issues, sometimes we talk about crazy stuff like VST support in Reason (even though we know it will never happen) but we still have a chat and usually get on like a house on fire.
Maybe you should go to your local pub and make some friends that are interested in your thick skin problems, im sure they will be more interested than us. Philosurfer wrote:Noting, I work with producers that lug terabytes of libraries around with them. Do they use them all.? But they like having them there if they need to.
Its funny you say that because i happen to work in a studio as well and all the artists that turn up at our studio only carry around what they need, i had a job in Abbey Road studio's last week (yeh the famous one) and the pro's in there have exactly what they need to make great movie soundtracks and would never clog up there hard drives with 17 versions of the same hi-hat, infact my mate James, who runs studio two was telling me the other day that they would never buy anything as prehistoric as a Reason refill. I asked him why and he said that the format is too 'closed' for comfort. No other format stopps you from deleting content, no other format makes you use the programs associated with it, i can buy a Kontakt library and use it in any DAW that supports VST's (except Reason) I can buy a EXS24 sample library and load it up into nearly any sampler by importing the samples, you cant even get close to that with a refill. Joeyluck wrote:I guess I have a hard time understanding how the ReFill format could be considering dying (or dead as this thread claims)? I'd say with their presence in the shop, they are more in the forefront than ever. I see new developers and new ReFills showing up in the shop all the time.
Before Rack Extensions (before the current shop), I had only bought one ReFill—and I had been a user since Reason 1. Since the shop opened, I have bought MANY ReFills. Hi Joey, I understand what your saying but until i see some hard facts to prove otherwise, I have to go by the sales figures that i have collected since 2008. My figures point to a gradual, then steep decline in 'Refill' sales.
I know you are seeing a lot of new faces on the Prop site designing new refills and you say that you have bought many refills, well, how many Soundpacks have you bought? How many Sample/preset packs have you bought etc and have you spent more on refills or sample packs? I myself have spent a small fortune on sample C.D's, VST instruments, sample/preset packs to go with my VST instruments etc must be around £10000 by now which completely dwarfs how much i have spent on Refills and i am just one person. The Steinberg, Apple communities leave us Propellerhead users for dead, when it comes to buying products and why, because Reason Refills are a closed format/market. Joeyluck wrote:The ReFill format is perfectly viable.
It allows designers to deliver libraries how they wish as they are the ones to design them. If there is a developer with a ReFill in which you would like to have separately as a folder (pre-ReFill packing); you are free to contact them and ask them. Show them your proof of purchase and tell them what it is you would like. If they don't want to share that with you, that is their prerogative and I would say that is the end of the discussion for that particular ReFill. Your absolutely right Joey but thats not what were really talking about.
PS just wanted to say that i have mad respect for you Joey and i read all your comments/threads. Avasopht wrote:I can freely save my own patches on my hard drive and space is cheap. You can get a laptop / portable 1tb hdd for $50!
You can always tell when someone hasn't bothered to read any of the previous comments in the thread I was talking strictly about my own experience in relation to the 'most people are tired of the format,' giving you details of my usage so that you can understand what my usage is. I have maybe 200 GB of content on my external drive that I'm not really using at all because I've been able to do most of my work with the 50GB of Refills. I also have plenty of audio samples but I've not bothered to copy them over this time as I just haven't felt the need to do so. And I have actually been following the thread and have read every comment,. Don't recall seeing any solid figures showing that a majority of users are tired of the format?
Maybe I missed it somehow or it slipped from my memory as it's just not the sort of thing I would read and later recall in between doing work and other things Hi avasopht, Please accept my humblest apology for my rash comment. Philosurfer wrote:As some others stated.
You can pack and un-pack your own refills if you are that concerned. Wow, thats amazing, please tell us all how you Un-pack a refill?, really we are all dieing to know? Because the last time i checked, you cant un-pack a refill without going mad and pulling out your hair first. I haven't looked for a year or two, but the last time I 'googled' it myself, no, there is no easily accessible, reliable (or maybe even workable) method to unpack a ReFill. The level of encryption may not be the most complex by today's standards, but it is sufficient to render ReFills non-unpackable for Joe (semi-power) User (me). Edit: So I 'googled' it again and came upon 'Reason ReFill Unpacker Viewer.'
But it's hosted on PirateBay. I think I will not download something from PirateBay, the digital equivalent of licking the bottom of a toilet seat in a bus station bathroom. A Friendly Mod Message: - No personal attacks in any form.
If you disagree there are civil ways to express your grief. As i mentioned in the past. I don't care who (you think) started namecalling or any other frowned upon behaviour. There is NEVER a good reason to respond to it. Let alone responding to it in kind. This is deemed as problematic as 'starting it'. This behaviour will be noted by the mods.
Actions we take on it are not disclosed. To any OP who has second thoughts about a thread title; change it it by editing the subject of your threads first post. The rules are. Lets continue on topic. Have a wonderfull day. Okay so if we want a better refill packer app that give freshness and new styll to them ok, I take the guess that what proptect refill's from being frauded up is stuff like names and maybe some codes.
Now knowing this cant they give a app that let you take any Refill sounds and pack it into a new one but including tracing codes that will let the new refill know from wich refill each sounds came from? I dont care if the computer know more then me what is in the refill if that can push the refill format in the right new cristal shoe. Midi keyboard online player. There are pros and cons and how they balance out will depend on the person. I still like the ReFill format but would like to see it revisited to give users control over what we keep kicking around on our drives. As a refill maker there is nothing forcing anyone to release things under the ReFill format, I think most do because they feel obliged to rather than for any other reason. I think I would zip the ReFill with an unpacked copy (as was mentioned in the OP) if I were releasing ReFills, or include it as a download option for monster sized ReFills.
As for the closed system thing, this is Reason, it's practically hermetically sealed. From a dev's point of view, there's literally only one reason to release a sample set as a refill, IMHO: to distribute via the PropShop. There is literally no other benefit that's worth it, IMHO. If you're a sound designer that operates your own website and has a secure shop in place, it makes complete sense to distribute in raw form instead. That said, the OP claiming the format is dead because his sales have tanked may not be an accurate observation of what is happening with the format, though.
Clearly there is something going on (or rather not) with his sales, as he said! I read somewhere that eXode's refill sales exploded once they went into the shop. I'm curious how Bitley's refill sales have been going (he doesn't use the Prop Shop)? Has the OP considered that no one is buying his refills because no one wants them? I've never bought any.
I didn't even know he made any until this thread, to be honest. For me, I try to buy sample sets that are uncontained these days, simply because I feel like I can ReCycle better than most sample houses that I used to buy from and I own ReCycle.
And now that Reason rex's natively anyway, all I need is the wave file and to know the original tempo, and I'm good. From a user standpoint, the only thing that makes refills attractive, IMHO, is the fact that Reason indexes them so fast and can instantly search them.
If Props would extend this indexing feature to any folder on the user's computer, I can see no purpose for a user to use them. Since the arrival of Rack Extensions, I know many user's hunger for refills has dwindled though. Perhaps the OP's sales issues isn't related to the refill format, as opposed to being related to more users wanting/buying RE's instead? EnochLight wrote:That said, the OP claiming the format is dead because his sales have tanked may not be an accurate observation of what is happening with the format, though. Clearly there is something going on (or rather not) with his sales, as he said! I read somewhere that eXode's refill sales exploded once they went into the shop. I'm curious how Bitley's refill sales have been going (he doesn't use the Prop Shop)?
Since 2008, my refill sales have declined and when the PUF closed, they came to a halt with the exception of maybe one or two sales a month. EnochLight wrote:Has the OP considered that no one is buying his refills because no one wants them? I've never bought any. I didn't even know he made any until this thread, to be honest. Yes i have considered this but looking at the evidence that i have gathered since 2008, Sound pack/vst preset sales have not been affected whereas refill sales have come to a complete halt.
If i had the same volume of sales for my soundpacks, I would take it that no one wanted to buy my products and definitely throw in the towel and give up, no point in flogging a dead horse, right, but I pay my rent and still have enough left over each month to live a happy life from my soundpack sales. Im surprised that you dont know about my refills/soundpacks as our paths have definitely crossed in the past. Sinnerfire wrote: Hi Joey, I understand what your saying but until i see some hard facts to prove otherwise, I have to go by the sales figures that i have collected since 2008. My figures point to a gradual, then steep decline in 'Refill' sales.
I know you are seeing a lot of new faces on the Prop site designing new refills and you say that you have bought many refills, well, how many Soundpacks have you bought? How many Sample/preset packs have you bought etc and have you spent more on refills or sample packs? I appreciate your kind words I actually have not bought any sample packs aside from ReFills. So maybe my view on this is a little narrow as I simply am partial to buying ReFills.
For clarification, I like instruments. I appreciate paying for well-assembled, great sounding instruments. I'm not often buying many drum or sound effect libraries.
I do sounds design for theatre, so I am always out and about recording and creating sounds for myself to use in that realm. So there's that to consider in this conversation. Do you have ReFills in the shop? Can you compare ReFill sales in the Propellerhead shop compared to sales elsewhere? I have been a proponent of developers delivering their libraries as REs via the IDT. Simply because I feel it better protects that developer/designers work and it places it in a nice, unique package for the user; which I think also draws a bit more attention.
One caveat being that the developer gives a larger cut of the sales to support the RE SDK and the IDT development. Not sure how viable it is at this point for sample-based ReFill creators vs. Just delivering ReFills. Surely there is a bit more work involved. I think Matt of Jiggery Pokery is probably the only person at this point in time who can really compare sales of ReFills vs.
REs for sample-based instruments. That said, I like both approaches (RE via IDT or ReFill).
They both have their benefits. So you as a ReFill creator; do you offer to customers the ReFill as well as the unpacked ReFill? I think that is the best way to go if that is a preference users have.
And perhaps the best approach is just to lead by example and maybe other designers will follow. ReFills work great for what they do. I'm not sure if it could ever be possible to add a feature within the format for editing with the way it is written.
It would seem the only solution might be for a ReFill unpacker which I'm pretty sure we will never see. But that said, the best ReFill unpacker would be the developer themselves; if they so wish to share the pre-packed folder with existing customers. Sinnerfire wrote:Since 2008, my refill sales have declined and when the PUF closed, they came to a halt with the exception of maybe one or two sales a month.
This would certainly point to direct negative monetary impact to the community as a result of Propellerhead closing the forum. Honestly, after all this time, I still don't buy Propellerhead's official line as to why they closed the forums.
To me, it seems like a case of sour grapes, pure and simple. They got fed up with all the whining on the forums and decided to pick up their toys and go home. Of course in their defense, there was a tremendous amount of bile spewed in their direction on the forums, which anyone and everyone would have trouble stomaching.
But yeah, the end result has been steps backward for everyone. It's a shame, really. Sinnerfire wrote:Since 2008, my refill sales have declined and when the PUF closed, they came to a halt with the exception of maybe one or two sales a month. This would certainly point to direct negative monetary impact to the community as a result of Propellerhead closing the forum.
Honestly, after all this time, I still don't buy Propellerhead's official line as to why they closed the forums. To me, it seems like a case of sour grapes, pure and simple. They got fed up with all the whining on the forums and decided to pick up their toys and go home. Of course in their defense, there was a tremendous amount of bile spewed in their direction on the forums, which anyone and everyone would have trouble stomaching. But yeah, the end result has been steps backward for everyone.
Reason Refill Unpacker
It's a shame, really. As far as the forums go, I'd say we have seen an improvement. We have more involvement here and more positive involvement at that. I'd say most of the negative traffic before did a disservice to the forum and anybody trying to advertise via the forum.
But only those who sell independently of the shop and advertise via the forum can attest to the impact of the change. I'm happy Propellerhead closed it. It was horrible and a conflict of interest with managing it. A forum for the users should be run by the users. They don't need to be wasting their time managing a forum, trying to keep it positive and productive, while tip-toeing a line of potential censorship accusations (which is a conflict of interest when you yourself as the developer are the ones moderating). ReasonTalk has grown so much and will continue to grow. Philosurfer wrote:As some others stated.
Refill Unpacker Download
You can pack and un-pack your own refills if you are that concerned. Wow, thats amazing, please tell us all how you Un-pack a refill?, really we are all dieing to know? Because the last time i checked, you cant un-pack a refill without going mad and pulling out your hair first. I haven't looked for a year or two, but the last time I 'googled' it myself, no, there is no easily accessible, reliable (or maybe even workable) method to unpack a ReFill. The level of encryption may not be the most complex by today's standards, but it is sufficient to render ReFills non-unpackable for Joe (semi-power) User (me). Edit: So I 'googled' it again and came upon ' Reason ReFill Unpacker Viewer.' But it's hosted on PirateBay.
I think I will not download something from PirateBay, the digital equivalent of licking the bottom of a toilet seat in a bus station bathroom. It doesn't work anymore. I used to for viewing files so I didn't have to open Reason. I create refills for compression.